That being said, my conclusion so far is that being with Mom and Dad (or the person whose job your kid wants or a small, committed community) is best. More on this below, but here is the "gun to my head" (as one reader put it) answer to the question: "If it were absolutely impossible for you to keep your sons with you, what would you do?"
My first response is that I cannot imagine a situation in which it would be "absolutely impossible." But, okay, I will play along. If it were "absolutely impossible" for Anders and Henrik to stay with me, this is what I would do:
A RIE daycare, ages 0-1
A Montessori preschool, ages 2-6 (making sure it's a real one)
Thales Academy, ages 6-10
Apprenticeships
Higher education when wanted and only if truly necessary
BUT I would be willing to suffer so much pain to avoid any of these, because:
1. It doesn't matter what school is chosen, I would not be the one raising my kid.
I have often thought of taking on two or three children from other people and teaching them along with Anders and Henrik. But that would not be ideal because the parent is not raising his or her own child. If I raised your kid, your kid and I would get along really well! But is that your goal? For your kid to get along really well with me? [More on this below]
2. The greatest predictor of Anders's and Henrik's future career choices are what their parents do. If Tom and I do not "bring Anders and Henrik to our life with us," we are depriving them of an education in the career they are most likely to pursue as adults. [More on this below as well]
More on Point 1: Why It Is So Important To Me That I Raise My Children
The vision of parenting sold to parents today is that we are birds. We raise our young, and then they fly away. That is what parenting was for my parents. They suffered through the rearing of their children and will spend the rest of their lives tolerating those adult-children at family holidays. If that. There is a lot of lip-service to the importance of family, but let's be honest: We can barely tolerate each other long enough to get through holidays. And even in families that like one another, they don't share their lives, just a couple days a year.
When I think about this model of family life I... would rather not have kids. Luckily, I know I am not a bird.
Monkeys form strong familial bonds and live in the same band as their parents about 50% of the time. Same with hunter-gatherers. About 50% of the children in hunter-gatherer societies leave their parent's band and join another band. The other 50% stay with their parents for their entire lives. There is a risk that these parents will have a kid with whom they don't want to share their lives, but there is also a 50% chance that their child will fight for his survival with them throughout their lives!
Now those are odds I would take! In that scenario, I would have kids.
My dream is a tightly bonded family, people with whom I really share my life, people with whom I battle for survival. I don't dream of seeing adult-Anders and adult-Henrik on holidays. I dream of them living next door. Or on the same farm. I would never force it, but that is my dream.
If I raise Anders and Henrik, if I bring them to life with me, I estimate that I have a 50% chance of creating this kind of life-long bond. If I hand Anders and Henrik to other people to raise, my chances of creating this kind of bond are close to zero. Is it possible for my children to be raised by someone other than me and still turn out to be someone with whom I am truly bonded and happy to spend my time? Hypothetically--sure! But I have not seen any evidence that that actually happens.
Despite the efforts made by schooling and our cultural script, the best predictor of someone's future job is still what his parents did. Yet the child who is going to grow up and be a writer like her dad anyway, wastes 22 years memorizing random things first and acquiring massive debt. Why?!
No matter how great the school, if I send my kid there, I am depriving him of learning about the career in which he will most likely end up! He could acquire his 10,000 hours in that career by the time he is 14! Or 18! Or he can waste 22 years trying to find his "passion" and start acquiring his 10,000 hours (which takes about ten years) at age 22.
So: knowing that the greatest predictor of my child's future job is my job or my husband's job, and knowing it takes 10,000 hours to become world-class at something... why on Earth would I send my child to even the best school in the world, so that he can spend 15,000 hours becoming world-class at nothing? And at the same time deprive him of excellence in the career he is most likely to have!?
I could only possibly do that if I bought into the idea that there is a One True Passion out there just waiting for Anders and Henrik to discover (if only they are exposed to this-wild-mess-of-everything that is attempted in schools). And if I believe that your job is more important than your people.
Let's say Anders is an expert at my job and Tom's job by the time he is fourteen, but he decides he doesn't want that to be his job. He still has plenty of time to do something else. And it's certainly not like he isn't exposed to a ton of other things just by going to life with me! It's only the kids shut up in school-jail all day who don't get exposed to the varieties that life has to offer since they are being deprived of actually living it. (And note that should Anders want to apprentice with someone other than me and Tom at any time, he is free to do so. Likewise should he want to go to school.)
My conclusion at this time is that there is no school better than homeschool.* Because whichever way you cut it, the child not living life with his or her parents is being raised by Not Them to be Not Like Them.
A Montessori preschool, ages 2-6 (making sure it's a real one)
Thales Academy, ages 6-10
Apprenticeships
Higher education when wanted and only if truly necessary
BUT I would be willing to suffer so much pain to avoid any of these, because:
1. It doesn't matter what school is chosen, I would not be the one raising my kid.
I have often thought of taking on two or three children from other people and teaching them along with Anders and Henrik. But that would not be ideal because the parent is not raising his or her own child. If I raised your kid, your kid and I would get along really well! But is that your goal? For your kid to get along really well with me? [More on this below]
2. The greatest predictor of Anders's and Henrik's future career choices are what their parents do. If Tom and I do not "bring Anders and Henrik to our life with us," we are depriving them of an education in the career they are most likely to pursue as adults. [More on this below as well]
More on Point 1: Why It Is So Important To Me That I Raise My Children
The vision of parenting sold to parents today is that we are birds. We raise our young, and then they fly away. That is what parenting was for my parents. They suffered through the rearing of their children and will spend the rest of their lives tolerating those adult-children at family holidays. If that. There is a lot of lip-service to the importance of family, but let's be honest: We can barely tolerate each other long enough to get through holidays. And even in families that like one another, they don't share their lives, just a couple days a year.
When I think about this model of family life I... would rather not have kids. Luckily, I know I am not a bird.
Monkeys form strong familial bonds and live in the same band as their parents about 50% of the time. Same with hunter-gatherers. About 50% of the children in hunter-gatherer societies leave their parent's band and join another band. The other 50% stay with their parents for their entire lives. There is a risk that these parents will have a kid with whom they don't want to share their lives, but there is also a 50% chance that their child will fight for his survival with them throughout their lives!
Now those are odds I would take! In that scenario, I would have kids.
My dream is a tightly bonded family, people with whom I really share my life, people with whom I battle for survival. I don't dream of seeing adult-Anders and adult-Henrik on holidays. I dream of them living next door. Or on the same farm. I would never force it, but that is my dream.
If I raise Anders and Henrik, if I bring them to life with me, I estimate that I have a 50% chance of creating this kind of life-long bond. If I hand Anders and Henrik to other people to raise, my chances of creating this kind of bond are close to zero. Is it possible for my children to be raised by someone other than me and still turn out to be someone with whom I am truly bonded and happy to spend my time? Hypothetically--sure! But I have not seen any evidence that that actually happens.
[Incidentally, the Amish have a 90% retention rate of their children. Why? Because they do not under any circumstances allow anyone else to raise their children. They don't homeschool though. They do one-room school houses that serve three to five families only. They hire the teachers. Their children walk to school and attend for no more than three hours each day and only through eighth grade. They have absolute control over what their children are taught--from the Amish reading program, to the excellent Amish grammar program, to Amish math textbooks... this is why "going to school" works for them.
Many religious groups have schools based around their religion and do not succeed like the Amish. This is largely because they allow their children to watch (be raised by) television programs and read (be influenced by) fiction books that accomplish largely the same task as public school--the children are being raise by someone other than their parents. Amish children do not do either of these things.
If my children could attend a one-room school house with just four other families involved where I had a huge sway over the curriculums used, I would do it in a second over homeschooling! But dreaming of things that do not actually exist is not the purpose of this essay. The point of this tangent though, is that my odds are 50% whereas the Amish have odds of 90%--their method, though unavailable to me--is superior to mine.]
The trend that I saw while working with families and their children was that parents and children had very little in common. They didn't share a life; they shared a house. Four to six strangers had dinner together sometimes and suffered through vacations together. There was talk about family being important, but all I saw were roads diverging from one another. Parents loved their kids but didn't like them. Children loved their parents but didn't want to have similar lives.
Today, animosity between parent and child is considered normal. We talk a big game about how important our families are, but on holidays and at weddings, when we have to actually spend time with those weirdos... those of us who aren't lying to ourselves, can't help but be heartbroken about the arrangement, the gulf between our siblings and ourselves, our parents and ourselves.
I saw this with endless couples as well. Two people leading totally separate lives who do drugs together on the weekend (TV, video games, alcohol...).
Think of how you feel when someone is on your team, the bond of fighting a battle with them! Maybe it was a sports team in your youth. Maybe it is someone you work with today. Going to war with your partners, the people who have your back, the people on whom your survival depends: these are bonds.
More on Point 2: The Dream Is The People, Not The Job
In Not Fade Away a wealthy, dying man leaves this piece of advice for his children: Do not take the highest paying job you can find. And don't worry very much about the actual job. Work for your hero. That's all you need to do to have a good life.
I read that after I came to that conclusion on my own. I moved to Los Angeles to "be an actress." But acting in disgusting movies I can't stand with people I can't stand... didn't turn out to be much of a dream worth fighting for. If I had it to do over again, I would not have decided on the job, acting, but rather the person, Clint Eastwood. I would have worked for him. I would have gotten him coffee for free until he hired me. I would have joined his team and learned everything I could from him about telling the stories I actually wanted to tell.
But largely, I think the Dream Job is a lie.
We are pelted with these family-destroying ideas our entire lives: Get off the farm and do something with your life! As if wearing a suit and being a paper pusher in the city is a real life. Be your own man--if you do what your parents do, you are a loser. If you take over Daddy's company you have failed. If you are a stay-at-home-mom you have failed. If you and your husband work together, you are overly involved. You are supposed to have your own life. Parents who homeschool their kids are failing to let their kids go and holding them back. A child's job is not to learn to work and live well with his parents, not to create his place in that clan, but to explore his own interests, so that he can leave the nest. Our job, as parents, is to pelt our children with infinite experiences, so that they can "find their passion."
This cultural script exists partly because parents and children can't stand each other and would never want to work together.
But it also exists because many parents fail to give up the keys to the kingdom. It goes squire, warrior-king, wise man. Not squire squire squire king. The minute your child is an adult with his own child, you are not the king of your clan. You are the wise advisor. Same with women. It goes maiden, warrior-queen, wise woman. Or, in my opinion, it should.
A study came out a year or two ago showing that people who live in small, intolerant communities are happier than people who live in large, tolerant/diverse ones. Small bands of like-minded monkeys traveling through life together.... We were taught that there was a job out there that should be our dream. But what if that is not true? What if people are the dream? People with whom to fight the battle of survival who make your heart sing?
But let's say there are some people who do have One True Job Passion and Anders is one of them. Would it behoove him to have his time wasted in school because he just has to know about All Kinds Of Things or would he be better off at home, where he is allowed to pursue that One True Passion all he wants?
Moreover, I have a theory that a truly brilliant career takes at least two and usually three generations to make. I have a great post about it here--
http://roslynross.blogspot.com/2015/03/nature-versus-nurture.html
Today, animosity between parent and child is considered normal. We talk a big game about how important our families are, but on holidays and at weddings, when we have to actually spend time with those weirdos... those of us who aren't lying to ourselves, can't help but be heartbroken about the arrangement, the gulf between our siblings and ourselves, our parents and ourselves.
I saw this with endless couples as well. Two people leading totally separate lives who do drugs together on the weekend (TV, video games, alcohol...).
Think of how you feel when someone is on your team, the bond of fighting a battle with them! Maybe it was a sports team in your youth. Maybe it is someone you work with today. Going to war with your partners, the people who have your back, the people on whom your survival depends: these are bonds.
More on Point 2: The Dream Is The People, Not The Job
In Not Fade Away a wealthy, dying man leaves this piece of advice for his children: Do not take the highest paying job you can find. And don't worry very much about the actual job. Work for your hero. That's all you need to do to have a good life.
I read that after I came to that conclusion on my own. I moved to Los Angeles to "be an actress." But acting in disgusting movies I can't stand with people I can't stand... didn't turn out to be much of a dream worth fighting for. If I had it to do over again, I would not have decided on the job, acting, but rather the person, Clint Eastwood. I would have worked for him. I would have gotten him coffee for free until he hired me. I would have joined his team and learned everything I could from him about telling the stories I actually wanted to tell.
But largely, I think the Dream Job is a lie.
We are pelted with these family-destroying ideas our entire lives: Get off the farm and do something with your life! As if wearing a suit and being a paper pusher in the city is a real life. Be your own man--if you do what your parents do, you are a loser. If you take over Daddy's company you have failed. If you are a stay-at-home-mom you have failed. If you and your husband work together, you are overly involved. You are supposed to have your own life. Parents who homeschool their kids are failing to let their kids go and holding them back. A child's job is not to learn to work and live well with his parents, not to create his place in that clan, but to explore his own interests, so that he can leave the nest. Our job, as parents, is to pelt our children with infinite experiences, so that they can "find their passion."
This cultural script exists partly because parents and children can't stand each other and would never want to work together.
But it also exists because many parents fail to give up the keys to the kingdom. It goes squire, warrior-king, wise man. Not squire squire squire king. The minute your child is an adult with his own child, you are not the king of your clan. You are the wise advisor. Same with women. It goes maiden, warrior-queen, wise woman. Or, in my opinion, it should.
A study came out a year or two ago showing that people who live in small, intolerant communities are happier than people who live in large, tolerant/diverse ones. Small bands of like-minded monkeys traveling through life together.... We were taught that there was a job out there that should be our dream. But what if that is not true? What if people are the dream? People with whom to fight the battle of survival who make your heart sing?
But let's say there are some people who do have One True Job Passion and Anders is one of them. Would it behoove him to have his time wasted in school because he just has to know about All Kinds Of Things or would he be better off at home, where he is allowed to pursue that One True Passion all he wants?
Moreover, I have a theory that a truly brilliant career takes at least two and usually three generations to make. I have a great post about it here--
http://roslynross.blogspot.com/2015/03/nature-versus-nurture.html
Despite the efforts made by schooling and our cultural script, the best predictor of someone's future job is still what his parents did. Yet the child who is going to grow up and be a writer like her dad anyway, wastes 22 years memorizing random things first and acquiring massive debt. Why?!
No matter how great the school, if I send my kid there, I am depriving him of learning about the career in which he will most likely end up! He could acquire his 10,000 hours in that career by the time he is 14! Or 18! Or he can waste 22 years trying to find his "passion" and start acquiring his 10,000 hours (which takes about ten years) at age 22.
So: knowing that the greatest predictor of my child's future job is my job or my husband's job, and knowing it takes 10,000 hours to become world-class at something... why on Earth would I send my child to even the best school in the world, so that he can spend 15,000 hours becoming world-class at nothing? And at the same time deprive him of excellence in the career he is most likely to have!?
I could only possibly do that if I bought into the idea that there is a One True Passion out there just waiting for Anders and Henrik to discover (if only they are exposed to this-wild-mess-of-everything that is attempted in schools). And if I believe that your job is more important than your people.
Let's say Anders is an expert at my job and Tom's job by the time he is fourteen, but he decides he doesn't want that to be his job. He still has plenty of time to do something else. And it's certainly not like he isn't exposed to a ton of other things just by going to life with me! It's only the kids shut up in school-jail all day who don't get exposed to the varieties that life has to offer since they are being deprived of actually living it. (And note that should Anders want to apprentice with someone other than me and Tom at any time, he is free to do so. Likewise should he want to go to school.)
My conclusion at this time is that there is no school better than homeschool.* Because whichever way you cut it, the child not living life with his or her parents is being raised by Not Them to be Not Like Them.
*Except Amish one room school houses and likeminded homeschooling groups.
Brilliant, as always.
ReplyDeleteAh, thanks Lindsay :)
ReplyDeletethis was a great read! I do wonder a lot how we have this animosity towards our parents. One of my early life goals where to leave the home as soon as I can support myself, because of how unhappy I felt by living with parents. Now another observation as you already pointed out, that most of us cannot spend too much time with our siblings or parents, but we still do it! Just because we have this society norms and its unthinkable not to visit the parents during christmas holidays or other things...
ReplyDeleteNow having these observations aside, you mentioned that homeschooling/raising children can be a way to bring up someone you enjoy spending time and the feeling is mutual. I still have to wonder how much time is needed to be together to reach that kind of level of connection. And lets say you manage to work at home and all, you still have to work and cannot raise children all of the time especially if he's not at the age where apprenticeship would be feasible. What do you do in those time slots if you don't want to send to normal school...
There is this movie called "There will be blood", not sure if you are familiar with it, but it touches well on the apprenticeship part where the father treats his son as partner for the business and raises him in that fashion. Would be interested in your thoughts on it if you see this as a possible model of apprenticeship.
Also interesting part on history. When you think about it there is ton of examples of close connections of siblings and parents. On one hand you could say that that were sign of the times when war was possible and violence was much more prevalent, on the other hand as you say children were raised at home most of the time. One thing now I remember is Van Gogh's letters to his brother, which he was really passioned about and his brother Theo provided him with financial and emotional support almost through all his life. Now if you think at one point that it was his "duty" to do it or was this something he did on his own free will probably we can only speculate, but my guess is probably the close connection they developed during childhood.
In conclusion thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated :)
Hi Evaldas,
DeleteHomeschooling alone won't help the parent and child have a mutually enjoyable relationship. I think it must be done with freedom and respect as well for each family member. Plenty of parents homeschool their children in very authoritative ways and don't end up with good relationships at all. Others homeschool their children with utter neglect. The creation of a great relationship has to be a goal that both parties contribute to achieving. Great relationships generally require good communication skills and a high level of self-knowledge. So I don't mean to make it sound like homeschooling is all that needs to happen.
Creating a great connection with someone doesn't require very much time at all. But negotiating, learning, experimenting, and adapting to figure out how to share a mutually enjoyable life together does. Creating memories together and finding work you both like to do also requires time and commitment.
I have not seen There Will Be Blood.
Violence may have been more prevalent in the past, but I don't agree that this was necessarily bad because (and this is the subject of my book if you have not read my book please do so): control is control. Trying to control one another is the problem. Violence is just one way to control another person. Manipulation, threats, bribery, praise, grades, rewards, societal scripts--these are just as life-destroying if not more so than the "violence" of the past. At least in the past it was clear who the enemy was. Today it's so much trickier!
Thank you so much for your great questions. I wrote a post in response to them as well! I hope you enjoy it! Sorry if my response here is rushed!
http://roslynross.blogspot.com/2016/04/if-i-home-school-my-kid-how-do-i-get.html
Roslyn
Roslyn,
Deletethank you so much for putting up all the post for this topic! The subject matter makes so much more insightful when you put your own life experiences.
I have read you're book, but I'll have to read it again as first time was more trying to familiarize with the ideas, thought I still need more comprehension when I try to explain it to someone else. The funny thing as you mention, when looking for a babysitter who doesn't have any idea about raising children, as chinese would say white paper, but the most common argument from a parent if you discuss something about children that you cannot have any valuable insight just because you don't have children yourself. I'm sure you have dealt with this argument, what would say was the biggest difference in terms of understanding once you started raising Anders?
Now regarding violance itself, personally I am happy that we live in times where you don't have to be always on guard and ready to fight for your survival. Though for thousand of years we did evolve like that and those instincts are still there that's why as you say they appear in different forms and shapes. Interestingly enough we had some examples in history like Rome and Greece where people enjoyed prosperity and piece comparable to todays levels. Thought they did degress in the long run.
The pleasure is all mine to be able to ask you these questions personally! I'll add some more thoughts on the post itself once I get them together.
Evaldas
DeleteHi Evaldas!
I was a "supper nanny" for ten years before I had kids. I was an expert on children because I had read hundreds of books on the subject and because I worked with kids. Anyone who talked to me about children understood that immediately. You don't have to have kids to be an expert or to be treated like one. Thought, when you are an expert it's generally obvious--you never have to say, "I am an expert." Other people decide you are as they talk to you.
You will find that those who knew you before you developed your expertise will be the ones who cause you the most grief! With them, I always share things I learn this way, "I read this super interesting thing the other day..." Rather than "I think." In some situations people are more receptive to information if it's from a "real" expert with a PhD and not me.
Even though I was a nanny for three kids and know a lot about juggling three kids, I would still smile and nod at a parent who told me, "Well you don't know what it's like to have 3 kids!" Because what they are really saying is, "I need some understanding and compassion for how hard this is." Someone looking for compassion and empathy does not want advice, solutions, or insight.
But what did having Anders teach me about what I knew from being a nanny and the reality?
-I had read that raising children was exhausting, but I had been a nanny for so long and worked 80 hour weeks so often that I figured I understood. I did not. I did not understand what it is like to never get to go home and unwind, to never be "off work."
-I think we must always be on guard for our survival--it's just trickier now. 95% of what is sold at every grocery store and restaurant is poison. It may not kill you today, but it will kill you. The government tells you to have your children injected with toxic substances, the dentist wants to drill needlessly into your teeth and fill your mouth with toxic substances, psychiatrists want you on mood altering drugs with horrific side effects to keep you complacent, if you go to the doctor and blindly do what he says you will find yourself with a sick child on antibiotics every other month getting more and more serious diseases as the years go by, everything on television encourages you to do drugs and distract yourself--drink and copulate and shop until you forget. Most people have been tricked with bad philosophy into going into debt and being overweight. If we don't pay attention to what is true information and what is lies we will end up infertile. Or our children will. We think of survival in such a short-term way that we don't realize: Most people aren't "surviving." I am surrounded by the walking-dead, zombies on drugs. Are you saying that these people are "surviving" because they can still walk?
I think the fight for survival is still on. The threats to your survival are not overt violence, but they are attacking you every day :)
Roslyn
I have enjoyed many of the points in your post. I wonder what your thoughts are on raising a child who clearly shows a propensity towards a subject which neither, I nor my husband are familiar with or have interest. How do I bridge this gap? He will absolutely learn from us but not what he is clearly yearning to learn. As well, learning this subject would be most beneficial when using certain objects, things we do not have, nor have the money to buy. This is the issue I am struggling with in regards to homeschooling.
ReplyDeleteI would need more info to be helpful to you here! What age is your child? What is the interest? What is your line of work? Is this interest of your child's an interest of yours as well? How was he exposed to it? Those kinds of things! But in general it seems that you have a good grasp: He wants to learn something that you cannot each him. Who can? Find that person! My brother was really into computers. We were dirt poor. My dad managed to get ahold of 5 broken computers that were being thrown away. He and my brother took them apart and learned about them. My brother and his friend kept learning about them. They ended up turning those 5 broken computers into 3 working computers.... Anyway, give me more info maybe I will have some good suggestions!
DeleteI love this idea of bringing your children to life with you. I want to homeschool my son, but I'm not sure how that will look for us. I'm currently unemployed because I'm staying home with him, and I didn't really have a career before he was born either - I had various jobs, but not a true "career" that I'm planning to go back to. My husband is a college professor, so I suppose our son might be able to sit in on some of his classes, but I'm not sure what my husband's bosses and colleagues would think about that. What do you and your husband do that allow you to bring your son along?
ReplyDeleteHi Faye,
DeleteMy husband owns a company. It would definitely not be okay for him to bring his son to work most of the time, but once a week or so he can get away with it because he is the boss. We spend half of our time at our farm in Nicaragua. I have told all of our employees that if they area teaching Anders something, that is more important to me than any of their other responsibilities, so the main place Anders gets to interact with real life skills is the farm.
Your child could definitely sit in on some lectures with your husband (as long as you were there to take him out when he was bored) but the main thing is that he could start learning what your husband teaches now. He does not have to sit through a class to learn the subject matter. (Though it depends on the age and subject matter of course.)